‍Georgia:

Hello, and welcome to “Watt's up with energy?”, a gridX podcast.

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I'm your host, Georgia Knapp, and as we start to bring our second season to a close focused on interoperability, I am pleased to welcome our special guest, Eleonora Potestio, the head of EU Distribution Product Management at Sungrow.

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As I mentioned in our previous episode, Sungrow is one of the world's leading suppliers of solar inverters, energy storage, and solar power systems.

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So, Eleonora, thank you so much for joining me today. And I believe you are joining from Italy, correct?

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Eleonora:

Yes, that's correct. I'm working now in our Italian office here in Milan, so that's actually where I'm connecting to today.

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Georgia:

Nice. Awesome. So, to start this off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you into the world of energy?

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Eleonora:

Surely. So, my name is Eleonora Potestio, and as you just mentioned, I'm head of the Product Management team for Distribution in Sungrow.

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I've been for approximately nine years in the field now, so time is flying suddenly. And from doing my research, this is about decarbonization in the German energy market at the research center in Munich, to then working as technical advisors for banks and investment firms that then wanted to invest a bit in renewable energy assets, and in particular utility scale, to now finally working at Sungrow for more than four and a half years.

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So, I was also previously working in Munich, where our European headquarter is, but now, as mentioned, I'm working out from the Italian office here in Milan.

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Georgia:

Okay, nice. And can you maybe...I know I gave a brief description of Sungrow, but is there anything you want to add to that, in case any of our listeners are unfamiliar with your company?

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Eleonora:

Surely. So, Sungrow is a Chinese manufacturer founded in 1997. So, it already has quite long years of expertise in this field. I think it has been for many years really concentrated on hardware, so really on inverters. But so far, we are now also shifting towards the whole clean tech environment. So, really Sungrow wants to be a clean tech leader, and really the EV mobility business, the hydrogen. So, really trying to provide solutions in each type of renewable energy asset we need nowadays in our daily life.

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Georgia:

Okay, nice. And you said they started in 1997 in China. Do you know when they came into the European market?

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Eleonora:

Absolutely. So, Sungrow has been in the European market now, I would say, for approximately 15 years.

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It started really focusing on utility scale projects, so the products that we were delivering at the beginning in Europe was really centralized inverters, but it has also entered a totally new market maybe five or six years ago by strongly pushing also the residential sector and building up the whole distribution business here in the Europe markets.

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Georgia:

And what were some of the challenges of bringing a Chinese company into the European market?

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Eleonora:

The European market compared to other regions in the world, I would say it's quite particular and unique. I think one of the main challenges is definitely European diversity. And what do I mean by this? By diversity, is that we would like, of course, a manufacturer to create one product for the whole European market.

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But this is really not possible because it's very different, market requirements or grid codes and regulation to follow. And really, this creates a lot of need of investments and energy and preparation in order to bring so many different products in the market.

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But also, once we brought these products to the market, that answers the needs of our customers, then if you really want to provide very good local pre-sales, but after after-sales support, we need to do it in approximately 25 languages. So, also that poses a great challenge, so really creating documentation, videos, having a big team located in each country to provide the support that our customers need. So, I would say this is definitely our characteristics of Europe.

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And secondly, Europe has a very long and established history when it comes to renewable energy. And so that means that it's a market really highly driven by very important and high standards, and of course, the quality expected by customers.

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So, so far, I would say we have approximately 15 offices. And so when I started in Sungrow, we were more or less 50 people, now reaching almost to 600. So, really being present everywhere in the European market to provide, of course, support to our customers in each language they need.

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Georgia:

Can you explain the significance of PV inverters in the solar energy system and how this contributes to overall energy efficiency?

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Eleonora:

Yeah, so I would say PV inverters are really an essential component of the solar energy system as they really enable the use of the direct current that's generated by solar panels to then be transformed in alternative current that can be used in to homes, businesses, and of course by the utilities.

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I think the cool thing about solar energy is that it can be decentralized and local, a bit like farm to table food, but for power. That means that also as a family owner, you can produce not only your food in your garden, of course, if you are lucky enough to have one, but also your own energy. And in this scenario, this helps a lot because there's, of course, less energy that gets lost in transit, and also giving sometimes the possibility of families to be independent in producing their own system and therefore being independent also from the grid.

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And of course, I think one of the most important thing is that PV inverters so far have been the brain of PV plants, and because it enabled to collect and of course, also monitoring data, but at the same time also control your plant by giving any inputs and controls that are required.

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So, for example, if you wanted to limit your plant production or maybe set parameters to comply to the grid, this can generally always be done via our PV inverters and of course, the monitoring system that you have connecting to. Of course, this is now changing. I think we will discuss it a bit later in our conversation, Georgia, but I think really so far inverters have been a bit the central part of the system.

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And maybe also more on a personal level, as working for our manufacturer inverters, I see this also every day. So, no matter if there's a problem on the energy meter or on panels, since it's always seen on the inverters, our customers always comes to us, firstly, when they see a problem on the plant.

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So, also sometimes it's really difficult to explain to our customers just that the problem is seen on our products, the problem is not actually on our products. So, I think this highlights also quite well the perception of people utilizing inverters as the fundamental part where everything is controlled and can be seen and therefore represents really the crucial part of our PV plant nowadays, I would say.

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Georgia:

Okay. And actually one thing I just realized, maybe we should clarify what exactly a PV inverter is. Because I realized, I said in the very first season, I'm still kind of an energy newbie. And honestly, I thought I knew what a PV inverter was. But now as you have been talking, I think I might be thinking of the actual solar panel. Like I'm thinking of the actual thing that sits on top of a rooftop. But it sounds like you're talking about something that's maybe a layer beneath that.

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Eleonora:

That's correct. That's correct. So, the PV panels are the first component, I would say. They, in our PV plant, of course, they collect the energy from the sun. But of course, these have to be transformed in order for us to utilize. And that's what a PV is.

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It's really, it converts the energy thanks to the PV panels that produce them, and to then transform it in alternative current that is actually then the form of energy that you use, for example, in your household.

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So, it's that really electrical equipment that enables you to take the energy from the sun and then transform it in an energy that we can use every day. And so it's really, it comes after the PV panels, but then really before your connection to the grid, to your household.

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Georgia:

Got it. Okay. What are some of the unique challenges that you think the energy industry is facing today in terms of maybe PV inverters as well as interoperability?

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Eleonora:

Well, I would say the challenge of interoperability are definitely there. I think the market is evolving very quickly. I think in the last years, we've all seen a boom of new type of products in the market.

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So, for example, from massive installation of residential storage solutions to electrical vehicles requirements and needs in the household, or maybe also integration of smart home appliances in the whole ecosystem.

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What is the problem nowadays is really getting all of these solutions to work together. And so really try to imagine to get a room full of people to agree on what to eat for dinner. That's really almost impossible. And that's what's happening nowadays.

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Really to make sure that all the equipment you put in a household can talk together, can work together, and then can optimize your system. And the energy market has therefore become much more complex, and this really requires a change of paradigm and thinking.

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And I would say there are several scenarios that we have to look at, and several challenges in these scenarios that we need to find a solution to. First of all, I would say the higher number of components, and that therefore needs to communicate and work together. As mentioned before, in a PV system, not so long ago, you mainly had maybe an inverter, a battery, an energy meter, and that was it. But nowadays, we also see wall boxes being added. We see also energy management systems. We see service providers that want to have also the ability to control products from other manufacturers to influence, of course, the products. And of course, that requires systems to be open and be able to speak to others. So, I would say higher number of components is maybe the challenge number one.

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Challenge number two is we have many different players in the market. And that, of course, adds a layer of difficulty in integration because it requires, of course, a lot of energy and also time and investment from companies to make sure that you can be compatible with all these different players that may be also speaking in different languages or maybe with different communication protocols.

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And thirdly, I would say also the different needs across the European markets. It's really not easy to standardize because each market is different and doing it in their own way, so you cannot really work on a solution and then apply it in all the countries, but you really have to integrate and work on different solutions for all types of the countries that you have to work into.

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And lastly, I would say regulation. Regulation is changing quickly or sometimes, especially in our sector, is maybe still in the making. So, I think all of us really need to be quick on our feet in order that we can adapt. And quick enough, and of course, not then to stay a bit left behind, I would say.

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Georgia:

Is there any regulation that you can think of specifically? And it can only be in Italy – it doesn't have to be all throughout Europe – but that you think is enabling this change?

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Eleonora:

Well, I would say we still do not have such a strong regulation at the moment in Europe, because as I was mentioning earlier, there are still a lot of regulation that are coming up, because many solutions are quite new and innovative. So, I think also government and regulation needs to catch up.

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But I think in Italy, what we are seeing, for example, that's maybe worth mentioning, is that we are seeing E-Distribuzione, which is one of the main grid service providers in Italy that's upgrading its whole infrastructure to make it more open, of course, and more communicative to all systems.

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So, for example, they are carrying out a massive replacement of old energy meters to smart energy meters. And this would really then allow also other players in the market to maybe have access to all of the data of the smart meters and then help, of course, in the communication and in the working together with grid providers for many solutions that they may be requiring us to comply with in the future.

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So, definitely, I think there are some, and maybe more we see more in the Nordics or in Germany at the moment. But I think this is also something that we will soon see coming across all European countries very soon.

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Georgia:

Do you, that just made me wonder about, do you know what the current state of solar energy in Italy is? Like, do you guys have a very high number of PVs? Or is it still, like, trying to grow?

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Eleonora:

So, Italy has historically been always quite an important player in the solar market. And unfortunately, I think regulation and incentivized schemes have played a crucial role.

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We've had in the 2008, 2010, the periods of the different Conto Energia with different incentivized schemes to push the energy market, which caused kind of all, which brought a really boom in the solar installations across Italy.

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Another quite important measure that I would like to highlight is the Ecobonus, was also another incentivized scheme that was pushed a couple of years ago, some years ago, in the market, really targeting residential installation. And that has also definitely brought the Italian market to invest a lot in the residential sector.

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So far, if we look at the data, Italy is on the podium, so following Germany and Spain, so has caught up a bit of the lag in the last years and has, again, put in the front run in the install capacity in the European market.

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Georgia:

Okay, nice. And what challenges do you think are presented by more advanced use cases when it comes to interoperability? And how can all of these requirements be taken into account?

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Eleonora:

So, I would say more advanced use cases of interoperability are today only possible with the use of external management system. So, really these advanced cases that are requested by us cannot anymore be achieved only by using inverters and the monitoring platform. So, definitely this has been quite a shift in the market.

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And I think what energy management systems do is they provide additional compatibility layer between all devices. And in fact, as I said, initially PV-inverter has been so far the brain of the plant, but we're seeing a bit of responsibility shifting towards EMS systems.

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And different manufacturers as historically, of course, have their own proprietary protocols of communication. And in some cases, we also see some manufacturers that are not open for collaboration with other brands.

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And if we look maybe at Sungrow, I think in the past, we've always tried to be open and made our products speak with other products. An example is our inverter, our SHRT, which we made communicate with different batteries from other manufacturers that were available in the European market to, of course, maybe provide this extra opportunities and products to our customers.

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However, this interoperability, of course, could be confirmed after a lot of internal testing and, of course, use of R&D resources because each battery works in a different way. And, of course, we have to make sure that the firmware in our inverter is optimized and work properly with each single of them.

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So, I would say at the moment, also, if you want to make our products open to external parties, it still requires a lot of efforts and work. And that's why I think also standardization in the market is quite a key.

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But I would say, really, there are so many new advanced case scenarios that can be adopted and can be enabled nowadays with energy management systems, which is really then going to provide many more advantages to customers using their own PV plants at home.

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Georgia:

So just a second ago, when you were saying that you guys do try, you're very open to trying to be interoperable with other manufacturers, other companies, just out of curiosity, if like, let's just say a brand new company comes to you and is like, hey, we want our product to be interoperable with your PV systems.

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What is the timeline it would take to make those two systems then speak the same language?

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Eleonora:

Well, that really is very difficult to answer. It's often the first question posed to us during the introduction meeting. I think that really depends on the setups of our products.

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And of course, those of the partners that want to reach compatibility, it depends which features they would like to enable. And of course, if they require massive efforts in changing the firmers or the products type, I would say in some cases, it can be very quick.

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An example I can give is when some software manufacturers want to integrate their products, or they want to integrate our products in their software. And that's very easy. We just can give them a full OpenSVR or API to a monitoring platform, and they can just download the data and put it up on their app. So in that case, it really can take maybe just some weeks or some days.

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In other cases, if, for example, this partner wants to control our products, there's many much more layers of code that we need to write or products that we need to adapt, and that can, of course, require much more time.

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So, it's not easy to answer, but I think they just have to be the interest to make it work and then put the efforts and time towards the compatibility.

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Georgia:

And switching gears just a tiny bit, in your opinion, which country or region do you think is leading the way in solar power?

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Eleonora:

Well, I would say maybe the Nordics and Germany, but actually for two different reasons. I think when we look at Germany, I would say Germany has been maybe the Rolling Stones of the energy field, really rocking the renewable energy scene since the 80s and 90s. And I think there's also no sign of stopping.

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Germany is still in 2023, according to the reports from Solar Power Europe, for example, has been, is still the country that has installed the more capacity in the region. But of course, Germany is also in the front run, not only for the capacity, but also because taking a bit the lead from the technology point of view, the regulation point of view, and of course, also many countries are looking at Germany and then following a bit the trends and the regulation that the country is putting forward.

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But I would also add the Nordics, and maybe in particular Sweden, maybe although Sweden is not really a country with a huge solar potential to other European ones, I think they're still on the front run. And the demand of the products that we receive from the Swedish market sometimes gives us a bit of a heads up of what is the future needs in other countries.

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And so, for example, in the past, we've seen that the need of hybrids or big residential storage products were coming from the Swedish market, and then were requested also in other countries after maybe some months or some years.

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But also, I think most importantly, on the creation of a digital infrastructure, I would say, with very specific features that needs to be implemented.

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I think also in your previous episodes of your podcast, you were also mentioning that Sweden is really pushing for this digitalization, and thanks also to really a strong framework that they have in place. An example I can give is the frequency market.

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So, really, thanks to the regulation in place, it allows also residential customers and small customers to also easily participate without the huge need of efforts and working on this solution.

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So, I would say this is very important also for us as a manufacturer, because focusing on these markets and maybe pushing for innovative solutions also help us understand which are the trends and where the market is actually going.

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Georgia:

Okay. And then jumping off of that, is there a country that you think would surprise people? Is a front runner for solar energy?

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Eleonora:

Well, I think, you know, solar map. So, really those maps that tells you each potential for solar is quite straightforward. So, really just by looking at the maps, it's quite easy to understand that the southern Europe have a strong advantage.

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But the problem here is actually that sometimes these countries are not the ones that are using the most potential. So, really, I would say the difference is how this potential is tapped into and how quickly it happens.

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So, really this depends on the framework and incentivize schemes that are in place at the country. It depends on maybe how quick and easy the permitting is and works in the country. But of course, also the availability of skilled workforce that have been a massive issue, I would say, in the last years.

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Also the stability of flexibility of the grid. So, looking at all of these aspects, maybe I would answer the Netherlands. I think when you think of the Netherlands, you think of us more, maybe sometimes rainy countries, maybe more known for, you know, tulips rather than sunshine.

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But I would say Netherlands has really ranked 4 for installed capacity, according to the Solar Power Europe Report in 2023. Sorry, in 2023. And it is actually the first country in Europe for solar capacity per capita.

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That means that for each person, it actually has the most installed capacity. So, I think this is definitely an interesting case to highlight for the maybe European market.

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Georgia:

Okay. Yeah, that is interesting. I wouldn't have necessarily thought the Netherlands, although I believe for the past few years, they've been offering pretty good incentives for residential homes to put on PVs and to get batteries, or that might be the new thing coming up.

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But I'm not one of the energy experts, so maybe I shouldn't try to talk about that.

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Eleonora:

No, but that's correct. I think there have been many incentivized schemes, both targeting utility scale systems like the SDE, but also homeowners, you see, also all new households in the Netherlands also need to be equipped with some sort of panels.

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So definitely, you're right, Georgia. There's also a lot of push from really a policy point of view to make solar industry also booming in the Netherlands.

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Georgia:

Well, thank you so much. To wrap up the episode, I always like to ask a fun question. And for you, I have: if a PV inverter were an animal, what would it be and why?

Eleonora:

If a PV were an animal, I think maybe this is the most difficult questions for me to answer. I think with technical questions is easier. This fun question maybe poses a bit more difficulty.

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But maybe I would compare it to a honeybee.

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And the reason I thought of a bee is maybe the honeybees are really known for their skills in pollination, hard work, and also I think quite essential for the ecosystem.

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We cannot really survive also without bees in our lives. So, I think also PV inverters are quite a critical component in the solar system, but also I think from the energy point of view, I think renewable is also based a lot on PV plants, and therefore I see this as a crucial maybe aspect and maybe a similarity to that.

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And yeah, maybe also from the energy conversion side, you know, a honeybee converts nectar then into honey, which is a very energetic product. And I think the inverters do the same by converting DC and electricity then into AC.

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So, maybe that can be another analogy that can capture a bit of the similarities between a bee and a PV plant or a PV inverter.

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Georgia:

Yeah, no, I love that. That makes me want to write our next blog post comparing why a PV inverter is like a honeybee, and they will both save the world. Awesome.

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Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. Was there anything else you'd like to add before we sign off?

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Eleonora:

Well, I just wanted to thank you, Georgia, but also gridX for inviting me to speak in the podcast, as I mentioned in the beginning, my first podcast. So, that's very nice. Of course, sorry, I couldn't be today's person, but I'm glad to be here anyway.

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And yeah, well, I also love the name of your podcast. So, well done, and I'll still continue to listen to all your episodes, also the upcoming ones.

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Georgia:

Awesome. Thank you so much.

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If you'd like to learn more about the world of renewable energy or energy management systems, be sure to check out our website, gridx.ai, where we produce regular blogs and glossaries about the subject.

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You can also follow us on LinkedIn, or on Twitter and Instagram @getgridX.