‍Georgia:

Hello, and welcome to 'Watt's up with energy?', a gridX podcast.

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I'm your host, Georgia Knapp.

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Today, we are going to be talking about time of use, specifically the technical aspects of it.

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And to help me learn more about this, I am joined by Christian Augustin, who is one of our time of use experts here at gridX.

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So, hi, Christian, thank you for joining me today.

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Christian: 

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Hi, nice to be in the podcast.

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Georgia: 

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Let's begin first by, can you introduce yourself, what you do here at gridX, and what brought you in to the energy world?

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Christian: 

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Sure.

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Well, as you mentioned, Christian is my name, and I am the product manager of the tariff timer module at gridX.

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And this is basically the module which is responsible for optimizing the assets according to the tariffs, dynamic tariffs in particular, for the end users.

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So basically, we are steering the assets so that the end user can save as much money as possible on their electricity bill.

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That's it in a nutshell.

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In the energy industry, I came by accident, I would call it.

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So I was working in a bar when I was a student with some friends, and one of those friends was working at E.ON.

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And while I was searching for a master study, a master thesis, she asked me if I wanted to do it at E.ON.And so then I came across that opportunity and I just took it.

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And back then, it was rather on the topics of innovation management in the product development area.

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And then it, let's say after I finished the master, I was growing into product roles, product and project management roles.

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So that's how I got into the energy industry.

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And at the very end of my E.ON days, I would say I even had pilots with gridX and another company, which is also a HEMS provider.

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So I knew gridX from back then.

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And yeah, and then after a short period of time where I was working in the medicine industry or medical device industry, I met Robert, whom you also interviewed a couple of seasons earlier.

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And yeah, we talked about the opportunity to work at gridX and that you're seeking a couple of people for the product.

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And I was super enthusiastic about it because in the medicine industry, it's highly regulated, as it is not at all in the energy industry. I'm just kidding.

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As it is in the energy illustrating industry as well, but it is, let's say, a bit more, a bit more looser than in the medical device industry. So I was super into it, okay, let's go back into the energy industry.

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I already have some knowledge about it, and I knew gridX from before, so to say, a bit.

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And I thought that's a cool opportunity to have, especially since it's also in Munich.

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Georgia:

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Nice.

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And then what brought you to have a pointed interest in dynamic tariffs?

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Christian: 

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That is partially coincidental, partially not.

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No, it was, back then, we were structured a bit differently at gridX.

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So we had product managers and product owners back then.

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And I was one of the product owners in the solution space back then.

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And I was responsible back then for the front-end and back-end part of the end-user solution for how we show and how the tariffs get into the action of the end-user's sphere in terms of the dashboard and how they are going to be visualized and which interfaces do we have to get those tariffs, the tariff information.

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And after a bit of restructuring in the end of 2023, beginning of 2024, we had a specific team for the tariff timer, so the optimization module.

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And then we were seeking a product manager.

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That's how I came to the role of being responsible as a product manager fully for the whole module.

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Georgia: 

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Okay.

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And then for listeners who might not know, I think you did just give a very quick introduction into it, but what exactly is a dynamic tariff, like for someone who maybe is a complete newbie and doesn't understand those two words together?

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Christian:

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Yeah.

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So back then, let's start from where it started off, right?

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We have had static tariffs in Germany for quite a while.

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So basically, where you just know exactly how much you pay per kilowatt hour.

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It doesn't matter when you use it or how much you use it, you pay a certain fee for each kilowatt hour you use.

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Georgia: 

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Meaning like, even if you use it at noon, even if you use it at 6 p.m., it's the exact same?

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Christian:

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‍Exactly.

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It doesn't even matter because at the end of the day, no one can tell you when you used it because in Germany, also in my place or my parents' place, wherever you go and you had a fixed tariff, once in a year, you had to read the measurement from the meter and tell them, okay, this is now at, I don't know, 2000 and whatever, what's not kilowatt hours.

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And that's what they build you, right, to learn the difference.

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And so it's over a whole year for this fixed price you had.

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And now with dynamic tariffs, that changes, depending on which tariff provider you have. But usually when we talk about dynamic tariffs, we talk about tariffs which have an hour or even 50 minutes granularity. Right now, one hour is the standard, let's say like that, in Germany, as well as in other countries. Some countries go even a bit further into 50 minute intervals.

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And now the price is not fixed, so basically they change over the day. And over, not repeatedly, but they are basically connected to the market.

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So when we talk about dynamic tariffs, we always talk about, okay, they change over each hour, a new price will be set basically, which then when you as an end user use energy, you pay exactly that price for that hour.

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And when we talk about dynamic tariffs, especially for the optimizing based on them, we always consider the day ahead prices.

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I try to make sense of it, because maybe that helps to understand it fully.

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Going back to fixed tariffs, as an energy provider, it was quite easy because you basically said, okay, those people will use around 2,000 kWh per year.I have that many customers, so let's purchase this amount of energy.

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Georgia: 

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Okay.

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Christian: 

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That's the old way.

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Georgia: 

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Okay.

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Christian: 

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And now, with the new way, it's on the day ahead, from each day, the prices will be set, or you, as an energy provider, you get the opportunity to buy energy for the next day, especially for the different times, with a different price.

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And that's basically what they bill you then, as well as an end customer.

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Georgia: 

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Okay.

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Is there any benefit to doing static over dynamic?

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Christian: 

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I mean, of course, it always depends on the household, right?

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I mean, if you have, if you really have the possibility to steer your consumption into cheaper price periods, then it might make sense to have dynamic prices.

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If you don't have the possibilities at all, and you have, like, let's say, you have a way of getting a cheap static tariff, then it might also make sense to keep just staying with the static tariff, and you don't have to worry about all of those, right? And also, if you have a...

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If you don't have, like, an energy management system which helps you to shift some load into the lower price points and price intervals, but rather have to use it in higher price intervals, or you're not that flexible, then it might also make sense to stick with the static one, or, yeah, depending on your preference.

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Georgia: 

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And then, I guess, getting now into the topic of the season, which is time of use, what then would be the difference between a dynamic tariff and time of use tariff?

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Christian: 

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Depends on who you ask, right?

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Some people will say dynamic tariff is the right, the same thing as time of use tariff.

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And then there are a couple of opinions about, okay, when is tariff really dynamic?

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Because back in the days, we also had in Germany day and night tariff, as well as you have, I think, in Belgium, it's still common, where you just have two different prices for two different time periods, for day and for night.

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I mean, some people consider that also as dynamic.

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Georgia: 

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Yeah.

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Christian: 

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Yeah, but when we mostly talk about dynamic, and based on day ahead prices, really, every hour it changes, then it is, this is for us, really dynamic, and where the fluctuations are a bit more higher than just two different price points.

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But again, up to the opinion of the people talking about it, I guess.

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Georgia:

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In your opinion, are they basically synonyms, or do you see a difference between dynamic and time of use?

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Christian: 

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They're more or less synonyms, right?

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For me, always when we make time of use, I'm thinking about the optimization.

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While dynamic tariffs are completely independent from the optimization, but they're really just, okay, whenever you use energy at a different period of time, you pay a different price.

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Georgia: 

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Okay.

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And then I do feel like you're already answering this question, but just in case you're not, where do time-of-use tariffs fit in the energy landscape?

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Christian: 

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So for me, that's why it's also now getting so much traction, I think, is because we're getting more renewable energies and more and more and more. So basically, the prices on the market fluctuate a bit more than they were a couple of years ago.

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And that's where they have their right on the energy industry, in my opinion, because right now, we need to ensure that on a higher level, we ensure that the grid stays stable.

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And for me, the dynamic tariffs based on the price is really a great tool to allow multiple participants of this whole energy system to align on when to use energy and when to not.

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Georgia: 

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And I would like to elaborate a bit more, because the prices, how do they get made, why are they fluctuating?

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Christian: 

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It's basically the reason for that is the demand as well as the availability always varies a bit on day to day, on hour to hour.

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Let's take a very, very simple example.

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During the day, when we are in Germany, when it's super sunny, and the prices during the midday are cheaper than they are usually on, I don't know, 6, 7, 8 in the evening.

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That's why, because the reason for that is basically because we have a lot of PV energy available. So there's a lot of energy available on the market, and maybe the demand is even lower because a lot of people are at work or whatsoever. So it's always day to day, it's a bit different.

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But the interplay between demand and availability of the energy then makes the prices fluctuate over the day.

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Georgia: 

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Okay, so then you always see basically the same curve, not always the same, to be honest, fair, sorry.

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Christian: 

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But you see over days that the prices have a very similar way to go.

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Meaning that there are certain times where there are peaks, where a lot of demand is, usually in the evening, for example, where people are using energy when they come home, for example, and then the prices are a bit higher. And that's basically how this whole system is working and how the prices are getting to a fluctuating state, I would say.

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Georgia: 

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And so from a technical perspective, how exactly does it work?

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Christian: 

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Like, what technologies are required to implement time of use tariffs effectively? Again, a question on, do we talk about the time of use optimization or the tariffs?

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Georgia:

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I would say the time of use optimization.

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Christian: 

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All right, all right. So there are multiple things required to do, optimize a system or a household based on those tariffs. First of all, of course, you need to have a tariff, which is dynamic, right? And for doing optimization, we need to know the prices.

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By we, I always talk about us in terms of the energy management system.

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Georgia: 

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Okay.

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Christian: 

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Yeah. So we need to know the prices of the end-users. That's basically something which we get from the energy provider directly or via the market information, which is available.

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Georgia: 

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Okay.

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Christian: 

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Yeah, that's one thing.

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On the other hand, to optimize a household, basically you need assets which allow you to shift a certain kind of load. So like the PV, the heat pump, the...

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Georgia: 

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Yeah.

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Christian: 

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PV, basically, you can shift load. You expect loads to come to be produced, which you can then use for shifting or for storage, for example. So when we talk about shifting load, we talk about battery storage, we talk about an EV, a charging station where we know when to control it, as well as a heat pump, for example.

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So those are steerable assets. We always call them steerable assets. And the load we can shift, that's when the buzzword is always about flexibility. Because flexibility, you can think of, okay, the flexibility of shifting load from A to B.

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By A to B, I mean from different time intervals to another time interval.

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And for us, it's of course important to know, okay, now if we know the prices, and we know basically which assets do we have, we know, okay, how can we steer the assets accordingly so the assets take energy from the grid when the prices are the lowest?

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To ensure that later on, or in a later stage, we don't need the grid supply, meaning the consumption from the grid, when prices are high.

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Georgia: 

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Yes.

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Christian: 

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So now we know the prices, now we have some assets which we can play around with, right? We can tell the battery, okay, now we charge from the grid, or now you discharge into the grid, not in Germany, but in other countries. And we know also when an EV is there, that we can tell, okay, when does the user need it?

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And during that interval, the EV is plugged, we know, okay, we have, let's say, eight hours to charge the car, and we know more or less on how much the car needs to be charged with, so then we can pick basically the best time on when to charge the car.

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Georgia: 

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Okay.

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Christian: 

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So that's what we can do now with having the assets, as well as having the price information, to make that really click and really make that smart and convenient also for the user, because there are different approaches from different competitors, or let's say companies out there who provide an energy management system.

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But our approach is basically, we want to provide the most comfort to the user.

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And that's something which we try to forecast the user behavior. So, we will take into the consideration on how is the user behaving over the last couple of days.

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Meaning, we will look into the consumption pattern of the user, and then forecast the consumption behavior for the upcoming day, for the upcoming, let's say, 30 hours whatsoever, and take that into consideration also for optimizing the assets.

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Meaning that if we know the user always stays up, gets up at 7, or we don't know that, but we know, for example, okay, the consumption rises at 7 to 9, for example, and then most likely it's going to happen the next day.

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Georgia: 

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Okay.

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Christian: 

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And then we know if the prices are high during that period of time, our algorithm can evaluate, do we need more energy in the battery to cover that load, or is the state of the charge of the battery already good enough to cover the load as it is, and we don't need to charge even further.

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And then last but not least, we have the PV system, potentially in the system, in the household.

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And we also have a PV forecast, which allows us to know or to consider also, okay, how much energy will be produced on site so that we don't have to charge the battery from the grid, for example.

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Georgia: 

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Okay.

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And then the PV forecast is basically the weather forecast, like knowing if it's going to be very sunny the next day?

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Christian:

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No, have you seen some graphs of how PV's system is basically producing or producing energy over the day?

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Georgia: 

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I feel like the answer is probably yes, but nothing is coming to my mind. I know I have.

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Christian: 

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All right. I mean, of course, it depends on if it's winter or summer or whatsoever, but basically, it's going up over the day and it's going down at the end of the day, right?

It's like a...

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Georgia: 

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Bell curve?

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Christian: 

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Yeah, bell curve. And depending on how the weather is, depending on which season it is, is it winter and the sun is rather, let's say, not so optimal, or the angle of the sun is not so optimal as it is, for example, in autumn or in spring.

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And from there, from those information, you can basically derive from how much PV is to be expected.

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Georgia: 

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Okay, so the PV forecast isn't necessarily taking into account, like, oh, tomorrow it's going to rain or something.

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It's taking in what, like, the natural alignment of the sun, but just how the sun naturally acts from season to season?

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Christian: 

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Yes and all. I mean, we consider the weather, because if it's rainy, you may have very little to none, potentially, PV production. But depending on how the weather is, what's the season, and how much of PV do you have, actually.

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So, it's a difference if you have a four kilowatt peak as a PV system, or if you have a 12 kilowatt peak PV system? Depending on that, the PV forecast will be, let's say, increased or decreased, or will be basically, depending on those information, weather information of a nominal power of the PV system, you can forecast a better curve on what is to be expected for that day.

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To be fairly honest, that's something which we don't fully do in-house, but that's something where we also have a third party for that, because there are experts out there who do that also.

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But yeah, that's basically how it works.

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Georgia:

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‍Okay.

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In your opinion, what is the role of APIs in bringing this data from different players and sources together?

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Christian: 

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It's key, basically.

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So it's really necessary to have the interfaces to the relevant parties.

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So for us, for the energy management system, it's relevant for all the assets to have the interfaces and also reliable interfaces, because you really need to be certain that it is behaving exactly that way you intend to steer it, as well as with the energy providers for getting the prices.

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So basically, it's one core element for the energy management system to have good APIs to all relevant interfacing parties, to get all that information to be able to steer. And also that the information is coming through reliable and is correct. So I think that's always been the challenge with critics, since we are having so many different manufacturers integrated.

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And this is basically a real challenge of ensuring that the assets are behaving the right way, for example.

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Georgia: 

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In your opinion, which of the energy assets are best combined with time of use tariffs to maximize their savings and effectiveness?

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Christian: 

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That's a good question, and I think it's not that easy to answer.

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For a lot of markets, it's the battery.

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Georgia:

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‍Just a battery?

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Christian:

‍Like…No, no. I mean, for example, depends on use cases you can apply, right?

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Georgia: 

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Let's go into practical real life on what's possible right now in Germany.

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Christian: 

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In Germany, it was long not possible to charge the battery from the grid even. And right now, it's also not possible to discharge the battery into the grid. That has been changing over the last couple of months, as well as hopefully will change in the upcoming couple of months. While in other countries, for example, in the Netherlands or in Sweden, regulatory-wise, it's allowed to charge as well as discharge the battery. That makes the battery, for example, super, super beneficial. Because then you can, I mean, we can call it market-upper charging, whatsoever, but that opens up a different box of Pandora.

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But what you can do then with the battery is you can charge from the grid when the prices are cheap and discharge it when they are higher. Let's think about a household which doesn't have that much consumption.

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Or, for example, if you're on vacation, you don't have any consumption at all, despite your regulatory fridge and whatsoever. And the battery would just stay there and will either do nothing or getting charged fully and that's it in an optimization which wouldn't consider any dynamic prices and wouldn't optimize the battery. But now, with the possibility of charging and discharging the battery, we could, for example, in the winter days, even if we don't have PVs, energy, we could charge the battery in the morning hours or in the night hours, where it's usually a bit cheaper and then discharge it during the day when the demand in the whole system is high.

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And then gain basically remuneration from discharging into the grid. So that makes the battery super valuable. And also in Germany right now, there are discussions of getting that law through or that regulatory possibility. That in Germany, there are discussions about getting this regulatory restriction out of the way, so we can actually also discharge the battery into the grid. But in other countries, it's already possible. And in Germany, for example, right now, the EV is a cool thing to have if you have dynamic tariffs.

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And that's why you also see when you compare different energy management systems, that they always have an EV case. Because it's a very simple asset to steer, as well as it brings a lot of benefit, because it takes a lot of consumption, and you can shift the load very easily. Because if you know how long is the EV going to be plugged on, well, then you have exactly the flexibility on from when to when can you shift.

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Georgia: 

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So when can you charge?

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Christian: 

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So it makes it a nice, nice asset to have.

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Georgia: 

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And what have you learned is important for end customers in incentivizing behavioral change when it comes to how they consume electricity? Like what drives them and how can energy, what can energy providers do to facilitate grid-friendly and or market-friendly consumption?

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Christian: 

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Yeah, that's a very detailed question. Let's try to translate it as well as I can.

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So what we've learned is at the end of the day, there are a couple of things which are really important to the end users. And that's, if they get a PV system, it's all nice and beautiful. And of course, there are people who are really doing it because they love to be green and renewable energies, push them forward, let's go.

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But a lot of the users are also owners of PV systems, as well as then also who would consider taking a dynamic tariff and optimizing their assets based on those tariffs. They have one goal in mind, right? In minimizing their costs. So reducing their electricity bill by as much as possible is their goal. And you will find different kind of categories of people.

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People who are super geeky, nerdy, and really love their system and look at their system, how did it behave, cool, and how can I now tweak the last couple of kilowatt hours so that I get cheaper, because it's fun for them. So those are the, it's called the very early adopters and who are really into it. And for those, maybe it makes sense.

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They will shift their energy consumption behavior. But the mass market, they are really more concerned, okay, sure, I want to do something good with getting a PV system. But they are highly focused on, okay, how can I actually save the most money without compromising as much as possible.

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Georgia: 

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Do you think right now energy service providers are doing a good job at making this incentive like really well known?

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Like that people can save money with a time of use tariff, with time of use optimization, without having to be, like you said, the nerdy person being like, oh my god, it's like 12 cents now, now it's 14.

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Christian: 

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Yeah, I think so.

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When you look at the market, there are a couple of companies or energy providers who have the promise of you don't pay more than I don't know, 10 cents, 12 cents whatsoever per kilowatt hour on average.

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And that basically gives the user the comfort of saying, okay, I can still use the energy whenever I want, without having to look at, okay, wait, how should I wash now, should I wash later, should I, I don't know, plug in the car now, should I plug it in later.

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So that gives them comfort, and then that also gives them the insurance of that their system is actually doing the heavy lifting for them. And then there are companies who offer their end users more or less fixed tariff. It looks like a fixed tariff, but in the back, it's a dynamic tariff, and then they're optimizing based on that. So that there are different approaches for giving that feeling of comfort to the user to not need to engage, so to say.

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Georgia: 

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And then before we get into the rapid fire question round, are there any new trends or technologies that we're seeing in this space that you are really excited about?

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Christian: 

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Yeah, I mentioned earlier on a lot of times the charging and discharging the battery into the grid. There are trends, as well as technologies, of how the battery technologies are involving. And right now, a lot of people are concerned that, okay, if you charge and discharge the battery all the time, that will have an effect on the life cycle of the battery, because it has a limitation of cycles.

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And if you charge and discharge more often then, of course, the battery won't last that long.

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So, of course, I'm really looking forward to seeing what's evolving there in terms of battery technologies, if there are technologies which enable us to have more cycles, which do not decrease the battery life cycle that much.

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So that would be quite cool if you can have more cycles on the battery, so to use it a bit more extensively. And then, on the other hand, there are...

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What we are looking forward is basically to deregulate a couple of use cases, right?

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And then there are a couple of trends, and this is a trend since 10 years, but at some point it will get interesting in Germany as well, right?

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The bidirectional charging of EVs, because basically you have big, huge batteries rolling around and not using it for covering your household or discharging into the grid. So there are going to be a lot of movements still, which are going to make the market quite interesting, and a lot of new potential is going to be coming, I guess.

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Georgia: 

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And when you said that possibly in the next few months, Germany might change the regulation so that people can discharge into the grid, the bi-directional charging would be included in that, or is that totally separate?

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Christian: 

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I'm not 100% certain if we are there yet. But let's see, I mean, this is also in discussion for quite a while, and as I mentioned earlier, a lot of things have changed in the last year already. Who knows what's going to be changing in the next couple of months.

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But yeah, we are looking to getting those use cases available via a regulatory side, because those are super, super interesting to work on. And also for the developers, it's super cool. Yeah, to see that coming alive.

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Georgia: 

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All right, so for the rapid fire round, so I have about eight or nine questions, and then we'll end with a word association, where I'll just say a word, and you tell me the first thing that pops into your head.

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There are no wrong answers.

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So cats or dogs?

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Christian: 

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Dogs.

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Georgia: 

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Kindle or paperback?

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Christian: 

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Kindle.

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Georgia: 

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Oh, that was very fast. When is your brain most active? Peak hours or off-peak hours?

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Christian: 

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Morning hours. What is that?

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Georgia: 

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I don't know.

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Christian: 

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When is the brain most active? What is peak hour for you?

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Georgia: 

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Peak hours, I would think, when people are most active. So I would go with the work hours.

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Christian: 

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Oh, yeah. In the very early morning, I started working early.

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So yeah, and then of course, on peak.

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Georgia: 

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Nice.

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Christian: 

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Peak hour, sure.

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Georgia: 

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If you could automate one household task with time of use technology, what would it be?

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Christian: 

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Oh, automate, oh. Yeah, go for the classic one, washing machine. But yeah, I don't know. No, because you have to also be there.

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You got to load it, yeah. That's tricky.

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One household chore. Okay, the dishwasher, for sure. You don't have to be there.

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Georgia: 

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That's true, yeah.

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Christian: 

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Easy.

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You're always kind of loading it as you go.

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Georgia: 

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I think I might know your answer for this one.

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Which pairs better with time of use, solar panels or batteries?

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Christian: 

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Batteries.

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Georgia: 

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Yeah.

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You said that very low.

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If you could redesign one piece of the energy system, what would it be?

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Christian: 

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Regulatory side.

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Georgia: 

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Nice. What is the most energy efficient thing you've done recently?

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Christian: 

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Energy efficient thing I've done? I built a solar panel on the camper. Let's call it like that.

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Georgia: 

‍

Nice.

‍

Christian: 

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Let's take that one.

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Georgia: 

‍

Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings?

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Christian: 

‍

Game of Thrones.

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Georgia: 

‍

And if the characters from Game of Thrones were real, who would be the best at supporting the energy transition?

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Christian: 

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Damn it. Maybe, maybe. Yeah, why not Jon Snow? Because, let's take Germany as an example, right? The smart meter rollout, it died more or less in the process, and he died in the, sorry for the spoiler, but he maybe was retrieved. So yeah, retrieve the smart meter rollout.

‍

That's why Jon Snow.

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Georgia: 

‍

Nice, I like that. If you could identify with any energy asset, which would you identify with?

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Christian: 

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The battery, because depending on the task, a discharge or a charge, yeah.

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Georgia: 

‍

Okay, nice. And as spring is just around the corner, what are you most looking forward to about this season?

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Christian: 

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This season in...

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Georgia: 

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Just in spring.

Christian: 

‍

Ah, cycling. Cycling, I am. Going out instead of going always indoor cycling. I think it's been long enough now for doing indoor cycling.

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Georgia: 

‍

Yeah.

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Christian: 

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Yeah. Still nice, but outside it's nicer.

‍

Georgia: 

Yes, yeah. No, I agree. And then for the word association, so I'm just gonna say a word, and you tell me what comes to your mind.

‍

Energy.

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Christian: 

‍

Transition.

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Georgia: 

‍

Spring flowers.

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Christian: 

‍

Sun.

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Georgia: 

‍

Smart meter.

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Christian: 

‍

Slow.

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Georgia: 

‍

Solar panels.

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Christian: 

‍

Energy.

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Georgia: 

‍

Time of use.

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Christian: 

‍

Great.

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Georgia: 

‍

Optimization.

‍

Christian: 

‍

Even better.

‍

Georgia: 

‍

Awesome. And that brings us to a close. So thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

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Christian:

‍

Thank you. It was a pleasure.

‍

Georgia:

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If you'd like to learn more about the world of renewable energy or energy management systems, be sure to check out our website, gridX.ai, where we produce regular blogs and glossaries about the subject.

‍

You can also follow us on LinkedIn, or on Twitter and Instagram @getgridX.