Georgia:

Hello, and welcome to “Watt's up with energy?”, a gridX podcast. I'm your host, Georgia Knapp, Senior Content Manager here at gridX. Today, we have a really exciting episode and a lot to talk about, so let's just dive right in.

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I am joined today by Thijmen van Nijnanten, Global Head of Product at Soly.

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Welcome, Thijmen.

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Thijmen:

Really great to be here on the podcast.

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Georgia:

And can you, just to start off, give us a brief description of yourself, what brought you into the world of energy, and specifically with distributed energy resources and energy management?

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Thijmen:

Yeah, sure. So yeah, here within Soly, my role as Global Head of Product is to make sure that we can help our customers on their journey to become more efficient with their energy usage. That's really what it is in one sentence.

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And how I got here, I think, is from, first of all, just a lifelong fascination with technology, and with technology solving big problems.

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And that big problem for the last decade or so in my professional career is the energy transition.

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So I've always worked in renewable energy, and now for the last, yeah, I think about five or six years in e-mobility and specifically on the energy management side of that.

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And what's really is interesting that, for me, is that it doesn't really matter what your route as a company is towards those distributed energy resources.

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So be it an inverter for solar panels, or an EV charger, or a battery energy storage system, the challenges are kind of similar, and are ones that we are very far ahead with solving from a technological point of view, but still really have challenges in how to properly translate that to customers, how to help people understand that to a certain degree that is needed and that is interesting for our customers, and help scale that.

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So that's kind of how I ended up here at Soly. And now trying to see how we can be the most successful that we can in this space.

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Georgia:

For our listeners who don't know, could you also tell us a little bit about what Soly does?

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Thijmen:

Soly started about a decade ago as a solar energy provider in the Netherlands. And what was really our strength, and what still really is our strength in that market, is that we have a really good digital customer journey.

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So we help our customers from the moment that they arrive at our website, they can walk themselves to a very in-depth configurator, a very user-friendly configurator to already figure out, okay, how many solar panels am I going to put on my roof? And what is that going to cost?

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What is that going to have as benefits for me from an energy point of view, but also economically? And then helping those customers through that journey really fully digitally.

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So the first time that we arrive at the customer's home is when we're there with a van, with the solar panels in the back, and two guys that are going to climb on your roof and install those solar panels, which makes us very efficient from that point of view, and really also able to replicate that same model over different countries and different markets.

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So we're doing that for more than a decade, as I said, but now seeing also that if we want to achieve our mission of helping as many households as we can to become energy neutral, then we need to do more than that.

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So that's why we moved into the next step of Soly. We like to call it Soly 2.0 within the company, which means that we also provide battery energy storage systems for our customers, EV chargers, dynamic energy tariffs, which is an essential part for this in this equation.

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And of course, what we call the Soly Brain^Ⓡ, which is our energy management solution.

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And together with all those different components, we can really help our customers in making the next step on their journey in the energy transition.

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That's what we're currently at.

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We really see that that's providing a lot of traction in those markets, and we can really help our customers with making that next step.

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Georgia:

Can you explain what distinguishes Soly's energy management solutions from others in the market?

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Thijmen:

Yeah, I think there are a couple of real differences on how Soly is looking at this challenge, and that really starts from a customer point of view.

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So we have always been, for the last more than 11 years, a really consumer focused business, which means that we're always thinking about, how do our customers want to interact with our problem, with our products, how do our customers expect us to behave and expect us to support them. And that's really something that we drive forward in all of our new product launches and all of our new innovations.

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So that's, I think, really being, thinking from the customer point of view first is what distinguishes us from a lot of other parties in the market, because what we've seen is that in this space, in the energy management space, it's really something that's technology driven.

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It's not specifically something typically that customers are asking for in big numbers.

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The people that are asking for it and really the innovators in the market are, with all due respect, energy nerds like you and me, Georgia, and you see that the people that, yeah, when you have to really reach the mass market, you have to look at how you can translate that to everybody.

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So not only the people that are into energy management or are into renewable energy technology or people that know what a kilowatt hour is, we need to be able to translate that.

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I think that's what Soly is really good at.

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And then besides that, we are a company that can provide the whole solution for consumers. And I think that's something that gives us a competitive advantage as well. So we provide the energy management solution.

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And we are also able to say, okay, do you want solar panels that we can then steer or an EV charger or a home battery?

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Then we are very happy to help any of our customers with that.

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But at the same time, and I think that's what differentiates as well, is that we are also saying that, okay, you bought your solar panels or EV charger or whatever it is somewhere else.

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We are really happy with that, as long as you're on the right path in our idea, at least on how to get to a more sustainable future by reducing your energy consumption, producing your own energy.

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Then we're very happy to support in that.

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And we see that that really resonates with our customers, so that we're actually quite transparent in that, and also able to support wherever we need or wherever our customers want us to.

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Georgia:

You guys are primarily present in the Dutch market, correct? Like that's where you were founded?

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Thijmen:

Yeah, so we started as a Dutch company. So our founders, as I mentioned about, yeah, more than now 11 years ago, at our 11th birthday last year, started in Groningen in the north of the Netherlands in really a solar energy business.

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And we really pretty quickly already moved from really focusing on the Netherlands on to expanding to other markets, because we saw the opportunity there for, yeah, quite quickly being able to replicate our business model over other markets.

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First of that one was South Africa, where we moved to, which might be an odd choice in a lot of, a lot of Dutch businesses, the first choice that you make, the first expansion is to our Eastern neighbors, into Germany.

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But we made a different choice there to move to South Africa first, and then of course expanding into other markets.

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Yeah, a number of different countries in Europe, so we're started. And I think, yeah, I wouldn't say our focus is the Netherlands, but we have the biggest presence in the Netherlands in terms of already installed this.

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And then we are also active now in Belgium, Germany, Austria, Italy, in the UK, and expanding really quickly there as well. So a number of different countries will be added to that list in the coming year.

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Georgia:

What did lead you guys to expand to South Africa? Because that does seem surprising to me that, you know, obviously you go to other European countries because you're European, but so what brought South Africa into the mix?

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Thijmen:

No, that's a really great question and actually a logical question, because it's something that people often wonder about, and that's something that also might not be a first choice for a lot of Dutch companies.

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But there's really two reasons.

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And first of all, it's the challenges that are there on the South African energy market are ones that really fit really well with what Soly is offering already in the Dutch market.

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There's one big issue in South Africa that is something that luckily in most of Europe, we don't really experience.

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And it's called load shedding, which is basically rolling blackouts throughout the country.

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So you just as a South African living anywhere in the country, you would receive a schedule by the grid operator saying, okay, tomorrow you won't have any electricity between 8 a.m. and 10 a.m., and between 5 p.m. and 6 p.m. or something like that. And that really varies per time.

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Also, sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less. But that's just times that there's no electricity available.

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And that issue is now commonly solved by placing very polluting diesel generators next to your house or next to your business. So when the power goes out, the diesel generator turns on and you're, you still have continuity of your electricity in your household.

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But clearly, that's something that we can solve really well, especially in a country with a climate like South Africa, with solar energy combined with battery energy storage, so that you charge your battery when the sun's shining, and then when the power goes out and you don't have that electricity, you just use your battery on site.

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So that's a really good opportunity that we saw from our business point of view. And that's really why we moved to South Africa first.

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Georgia:

Okay. And then Soly also entered the German market last year. Can you speak to what was that like? How did you tailor your energy management offerings to meet the needs of the German market compared to the Dutch one?

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Thijmen:

Yeah. So the German market, it's always really a challenge for Dutch companies that I see entering at the German market.

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It's often, the mistakes often made that we as Dutch companies, as Dutch businesses, and I see it happening the other way around as well. We think, It's so close. The people speak almost the same language. It's going to be the same.

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But yeah, that's something that you really quickly find out when you're moving into the German market or from Germany into the Dutch market, that it's not as simple as it sounds or as it looks.

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So one of the things that we see, again, starting from our customer point of view, is that the German customer's behavior is quite different than in the Netherlands.

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In the Netherlands, we see that people really slowly take steps into making their home more sustainable and more energy efficient.

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So they buy solar panels, and then they see how that works and how they experience it, and then they move to maybe an EV charger, and maybe a home battery later.

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And that's, of course, our energy management system fits in there really well.

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But in the German market, we see that customers more easily just say, Okay, I'm going to fix this once, and I'm going to do it very well. And that's, they just say, okay, I want now solar panels, I want an EV charger, I want a home battery, and an energy management system to make sure it all works together really well. And then we're going to place it all in one go.

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Which there, it really differs. Of course, we have the technological solutions for that to be able to do that.

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But from an installation point of view, it adds a bit of complexity there, because we're doing all of that at the same time.

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But also, it's, I think, a big opportunity, because if you do that, you can achieve a lot more efficiencies in making sure that you start with a well-oiled machine, let's put it that way.

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So that's one where we see that the market is a bit different.

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And secondly, and this is not going to surprise anybody, I think, in terms of regulation in Germany, there's a lot of things that are very different than the Dutch market or any other market.

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So there's a lot of challenges around integrations with DSOs, so grid operators, as well as, of course, the challenge around the rollout of smart meters in the German market, which is something that, in the Netherlands, it's getting close to 100% coverage of smart meters in B2C customers, so in consumers at home.

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And in Germany, we're not quite there, let's put it that way, which adds a number of challenges also from an energy management point of view.

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So you have to figure out a different way to be able to really measure and know what is going on in the home.

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Luckily, we can, but it is also an additional challenge to compare to the Dutch market.

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Georgia:

Yeah, no, the German bureaucracy gets you every time.

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Thijmen:

It does.

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Georgia:

In your experience, what would you say influences customers' decisions when choosing an energy management system?

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Thijmen:

Yeah, I think the number one point, and I'm not going to beat around the bush about that – and that's kind of the cliche – influence is the euro savings of an energy management solution.

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And that again, in my personal opinion, I don't think that's really what is driving customers there. I think customers are aware and customers also trust that an energy management solution is going to be beneficial financially in the long term.

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Of course, yeah, it makes sense that a company like Soly, we're not going to sell anybody an energy management solution for a certain price that is not going to outweigh the benefits.

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That would be really bad for us as well. So we would never do that. So I think that's the one challenge that you see that companies are really focusing on.

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But kind of what I mentioned earlier already is the real value and what really influences consumers' decisions on an energy management solution or a utility provider in that sense is really around the service that's behind it.

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So how do we help the customer? And how can we provide the customer with more rest around their energy household, about taking away uncertainties, about helping them in making the right decisions?

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I think that's where the real differentiating value is from an energy management company, especially in this developing market.

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So as I mentioned before already, a lot of people that have these kind of solutions in their home at the moment are people that are very actively thinking about it.

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They're working on it. They like making decisions around these kind of things and being actively involved.

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But we're moving more towards the majority of people, where the value is really in how can we just make this accessible?

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How can we make this understandable for people? How can we visualize really well what's going on in the house? How are we influencing the energy management in a household?

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And really build that reliability and that trust in that, I think, are critical.

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Especially when you're thinking about, so in my experience before, I was doing energy management for e-mobility, use cases specifically.

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And you can imagine if you're speaking of that reliability and ease of use, in a lot of energy management use cases for e-mobility, you see that you basically plan when you need your car to be full, and then the energy management system can do whatever beforehand, as long as the battery is full when you need to leave in the morning.

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I always say you can do that wrong exactly once, and then the customer is out. If you have to go to the office one day in the morning, and your car is not charged, then you have one very, very unhappy customer.

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And that's something that at all costs you need to avoid, and that's something that we need to get across to anybody who's moving into this space, especially while we're moving towards that majority of the population that should be using these kind of solutions.

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Georgia:

And then your home energy management system is the Soly Brain^Ⓡ, right?

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Could you maybe, because this whole season has been about home energy management systems, so I think our audience would definitely understand what HEMS does by now, I would hope. Could you speak about how is the Soly Brain^Ⓡ, like what makes that stand out from others on the market?

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Thijmen:

Yeah. So a lot of how the Soly Brain^Ⓡ is different in other markets, or other solutions in the market, is really twofold. So one part is what I just mentioned.

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So it's the customer-facing side, it's enabling customers to have one single interface that connects with all of their assets in the home.

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And with all, I mean the big energy consuming and producing assets, first of all, so your inverter of your solar panels, your battery energy storage system, your EV charger, but a lot more than that on top of it.

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So we keep expanding the types of assets and the number of different models of assets that are supported by our system.

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And with that, we're also promising our customer that we're future proof with that. And I think one very important variable in that is that we will never lock a customer into our ecosystem in terms of how they can expand their system later on.

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And I think that's one that's very key and that's also differentiating to other people in the market or other companies in the market, is that we say, okay, you can, we'd love you to use the Soly Brain^Ⓡ.

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We can help you become more energy efficient.

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But if you then later on, if you already have an EV charger from a different company or for somebody else, that's totally fine. You're on the right path towards being more sustainable in your home and we'll connect to that.

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And if you later on, you want a battery solution, we're very happy to support you and provide you with that. But if you want to get that somewhere else, we will still be the ones supporting you with it.

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I think that's a way of – way of accessing the market. That's a bit different than what I've seen before.

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And yeah, I think what that is really coming from is that we've been a solar energy company for so long, and we know that consistency and having a relationship with a supplier that you can build on over a long time, because these kind of products are going to be in your house or on top of your house or on your driveway for 10 years or so.

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Being consistent in that and being transparent in what you provide and the value that you bring is really important in that.

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And that's what we're providing from a customer point of view.

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If you're looking at the technology behind it, we are bringing together a lot of different types of energy management.

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So from the smaller assets in your home, so white goods, things like that in the future as well, to those big assets and the energy management around that, plus being able to provide dynamic energy, that really ties it all together, and it enables us to optimize based on the hourly rates as well.

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I think from a technological point of view, that's really our secret sauce, and our technology team is really good at translating that to direct customer value.

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But that, I think, is not necessarily what makes us stand out.

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So there's a lot of companies that are really good at the technology part, and there's not so many companies that are good at translating it into a good value proposition for the customers.

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Georgia:

And actually, while you were explaining that, for some, this just now came to my mind, the Netherlands is ending the net metering scheme in 2027.

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As obviously a company that's so into solar, I don't know, how is this going to impact your production? Is it like good impact, bad impact from a home?

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Energy management side, I think we were kind of seeing it as a bit more positive because it really encourages people now to invest in a HEMS.

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What are your thoughts?

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Thijmen:

Yeah. So first of all, who knows what's going to happen with the net metering in the Netherlands? It's something that is being debated so much, and we're going to end it. We're going to build it down. Then we're not going to end it. Then we're going to end it right away.

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But now, yeah, currently, the status quo is that starting 2027, we'll start building it down.

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And that exactly, so that uncertainty around it, that's enough to really influence the market in the Netherlands. So that uncertainty around net metering.

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Also, there's another subject in the Dutch energy market around feed-in fines, so to say, where utility companies are saying, okay, you're creating imbalance on my portfolio by feeding into the energy grid, I need to somehow recur those costs.

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So people with solar energy are incurring feed-in fines by feeding into the grid, which is also affecting their return on investment, and is affecting the customer's business case.

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These things are very, yeah, you see that they're really affecting the solar energy market in the Netherlands, and I'm expecting that to happen in different markets as well.

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But you see that does, you're exactly right there, Georgia. It's really making the case for a smart energy management system in your house.

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So that's exactly what it's doing, because if you don't want to be paying those fines, or if you don't want to be dependent on those feed-in tariffs in the long run, then being able to maybe turn off your inverter automatically when you're feeding into the grid is solving that problem for you.

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So then you can actually add a very simple device, a very simple feature to your home, to be able to avoid you having those fines.

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And then if you add, and then you can start into moving people towards other ways that they can be more sustainable, and they can in the end be more financially efficient in their house as well, by maybe adding a battery system to it, and storing the energy that you're producing on your solar panels in the battery instead of feeding it back into the grid.

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And then if you add a dynamic energy tariff to that, then you can say, okay, mom, if I need extra energy in the winter times, because I don't know about where you are, but I don't believe here in our office in Amsterdam.

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I haven't seen the sun in the last three weeks. And I think, of course, we have some production there, but it's not going to be enough for you to fully get all your energy supply for your home.

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So then having that solar energy plus a battery plus a dynamic energy tariff enables you also to charge the battery when it's most beneficial. So at the cheapest times, and then using it when you need it, when you come home and you're using your stovetop.

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So you see that this is really...yeah, this stopping these incentives that used to make solar so interesting are actually now really helping the next chapter of the energy transition towards, yeah, rather than just having a dumb solar energy system feeding back into the grid when you're not home, to making smarter decisions around it.

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So, yeah, for now, that's a challenge that we have, and anybody who's active in this market is into, okay, how can we now help people that are, that already have these solar energy systems and need a solution to be able to control them in a way?

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That's something that we're doing at Soly, of course, but also adding the next steps.

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So now your solar energy, your solar panels and your inverter, you've installed them five, six years ago, you've got your money back for it. What's your next step now to stay relevant and to stay future proof?

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Georgia:

And actually, you mentioned the dynamic energy pricing there, and that's something that we haven't touched upon too much in the podcast. And I know you guys have that in your smart energy package.

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Could you maybe talk about what that is and how that is benefiting your consumer specifically?

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Thijmen:

Yeah. Yeah, sure. I love the term smart energy package, by the way.

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I don't believe we use that one internally, but maybe we should, so I think that's a really good idea. So yeah, really, the dynamic energy is just an essential part of the next step in the energy transition.

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And you see in countries where dynamic energy tariffs are provided, you see that's really moving the needle in terms of getting more renewable energy on the grid.

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And at the same time, with more renewable energy on the grid, these dynamic energy tariffs become more and more relevant.

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When I think about our energy management that we provide to our customers, I always see it in times – in kind of a stacked, stacked different modes of optimization. The first one, of course, being home optimization, just based on the assets that you have in your house.

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So that means that when you're producing energy and you have a battery in the home and you're not using that energy directly, we store it in the battery. And then when the sun's down in the evening and you need the energy, you're using that energy from your battery first.

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So you're already moving a bit of your load away from the energy grid and you're storing it in home. Self-consumption optimization is something that you can call it. And it is really the first step that you take. And if you want to go one step further, you really need to start looking into what's happening on the energy grid.

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And dynamic energy tariffs, that's the way to be able to do that and to be able to connect a consumer or a home directly to what's happening in the rest of the country or the rest of the region on the wholesale energy market.

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So then when you have direct effect of the wholesale market prices on your energy price in the home, you can really, basically, you can have a lot cheaper energy because you're using it and we're steering your battery in combination with your solar panels to charge the battery when the energy is low, to discharge it when the energy prices are high.

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So you can make money based on that. So in a very basic way, just by trading energy on your dynamic energy tariff, while of course still keeping that first optimization layer there.

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So that's one that's important for that. And then the third step is when you really go one step past that, towards a virtual power plant type of propositions, where we're really pooling large numbers of batteries, solar energy systems, EV chargers together, and you can start really trade as one portfolio on an energy market.

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And that's something where, yeah, that's where a lot of value lies for our customers.

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So that's definitely where we're moving towards. But without going into that too deeply, the dynamic energy tariff is really an essential part to be able to do that. 

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Georgia:

And then shifting gears just a bit, what challenges do you see in scaling home energy management solutions?

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Thijmen:

Yeah, so when I think of the challenges that we have, I really think of the challenges that our customers have.

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Because if we can't solve our customer problems, we can try as much as we can to scale all our systems, to start pushing our solution to customers and spend a lot of money on marketing, but that's not going to help.

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It's really looking at how can we solve our customer problems.

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And what we see at the moment is that in the more mature markets, so that I'm talking about the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, Austria as well, where there's a lot of solar energy systems, specifically, but also EV chargers in the Netherlands that are already in the field, but they are not able to talk to each other yet.

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So they're not able to talk to the other devices in the home. And that's a question that we need to answer.

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That's something that we need to solve in order to be able to scale energy management in general, and especially for us as Soly.

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So that means that interoperability for us is one of the most key challenges from a technological point of view. So that means that we have to be able to communicate and steer as many types and as many different assets that we can. I think that's number one.

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Then number two is really for more an operational point of view. That's for us to be able to make this as simple as we can for our customers.

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Of course, we cannot expect anybody, and I wouldn't want to, and on top of it, it's illegal to go on their own roof and install their own solar panels. We are a very customer facing company.

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We love to help our customers and we do that for them very gladly. A lot of other companies in the markets do it as well.

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But when it comes to that next step, so that energy management solution, it just needs to be as easy as possible for customers.

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So we have to be working on enabling our customers to just order one of those devices themselves and be able to just plug and play, hang it up near your distribution board, and it's going to start optimizing your energy flows in your house. So that's really where we need to go.

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So I think from a customer experience, or a user journey point of view, it should just be as easy as one big red button on the Soly website, and you can click, and we'll start optimizing your energy. That's always how I see where we need to go in, let's say, five years from now.

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But for now, we have that challenge around interoperability, we have the challenge around commissioning these kinds of devices.

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In the end, it all revolves around being as user-friendly as we can be.

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Georgia:

Did you say that it's illegal for someone to go on their own rooftop and install a solar panel?

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Thijmen:

Well, I think it depends. If you're a qualified electrician, you can definitely do that. But of course, there are parts that you can, parts that you cannot do.

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I would never advise anybody that's not a certified solar energy installer to install their own solar panels. I guess technically you could be installing the hooks yourself if you'd want.

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But in the end, it's very sensitive equipment that if you do it wrong, you're going to have to buy new ones and you don't want to do that.

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And two, there's of course in any market, quite strict regulations around connecting any electrical devices in your house, especially when you're feeding them into your distribution board.

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There's a lot of certifications that are required for that.

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Georgia:

Yeah. Okay, interesting.

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I guess I always assumed people got a professional installer just because it is difficult, but it never occurred to me that maybe you weren't allowed to even install your own.

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I'm from the US, and so we're a little crazy with you just do it yourself.

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Thijmen:

I mean, if you're a very enthusiastic DIY-er, I'm sure you can be quite a lot of it yourself if you would want, with a lot of help of some good YouTube videos.

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But in the end, anything you're doing that gets near to your distribution board, you wouldn't want to do that yourself because that's not allowed.

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And I think another point that I just thought of is from a manufacturer point of view, manufacturers of solar panels and inverters, they have their requirements in terms of installation as well.

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And if you're doing that yourself, even though I have 100% confidence in your DIY skills, Georgia, they might say that your warranties are not valid then anymore.

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And that's something that I think you'd want to avoid as a consumer as well.

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Georgia:

Yeah, no, that's true. I would have no faith in my own DIY skills. My solar panel would absolutely fall off.

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Great. Then actually, my last question for you is, are there any innovations that you're really excited about that you feel could empower homeowners in the Netherlands to take even more control of their energy usage?

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Thijmen:

Yeah, I think I do. And that's really related to what I was just saying around enabling our customers to help themselves, so to say, in making their current hardware more energy efficient.

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So I was mentioning that big red button that you can click to just turn on Soly Brain^Ⓡ for your house, so our energy management solution.

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We're not there yet, but one of the things that we see is a really big value in the Netherlands, but also other markets in Europe is around solar energy systems that have been installed in the last number of years, that are not yet able to be connected to a home battery or connected and respond to a dynamic energy tariff.

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And that's something that we will be able to provide very soon.

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So that's, I think, a very exciting innovation, specifically for the people that have solar panels, that have already an installation there, but in the Netherlands are incurring these feed-in fines, or are worried about net metering ending.

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We've got some really exciting innovations coming up around that. So that's something I can't share too much more about, but that's something that you'll hear a lot more about in the coming months.

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Georgia:

Nice. Well, thank you so much for taking part in the podcast.

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This has been really interesting, and I definitely learned a lot more about Soly and solar energy.

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Thijmen:

Thank you, Georgia. It was lovely being here.

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Georgia:

If you'd like to learn more about the world of renewable energy or energy management systems, be sure to check out our website, gridx.ai, where we produce regular blogs and glossaries about the subject.

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