Transcript

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Georgia:

Hello, and welcome back to our final episode of the first season of Watt's Up with Energy, a gridX podcast. I'm your host, Georgia Knapp, Content Manager here at gridX.

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I want to start by thanking everyone who has been tuning in to our first season, which has been focused on charging infrastructure, specifically the current and future state of Europe's charging infrastructure. I know I learned a lot, and I definitely find myself paying a lot more attention to how often I see charge points when walking around Munich.

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As I explained in our first episode, each season will be made of four episodes, the first three being between myself and a gridX expert, and the fourth with an outside expert.

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Today, I am happy to welcome our first outside expert, Felix Hammer, known professionally as Electric Felix, an EV travel hacker.

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Ever since hopping on an electric motorbike back in 2017, he has been enthralled by the world of electric vehicles and how to help people incorporate e-mobility into their everyday lives.

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You can find him on LinkedIn, Twitter, or X @electricfelix, or on Instagram @electricfelixdotcom, that's all spelled out, where he posts regularly about his experiences with electric vehicles and charging infrastructure. You can also check out his website, electricfelix.com.

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So, Felix, thank you again for taking the time to speak with me today.

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Felix:

Glad to be here.

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Georgia:

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I know I already mentioned about 2017 and the electric motorbike, but anything else you can add as to why you got into the world of electric vehicles and charging infrastructure?

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Felix:

Yeah, as an Amsterdam resident and IT guy here, I've been using shared mobility. That was how I first encountered electric vehicles was with the shared cars in Amsterdam. And yeah, they were immediately, they got me into the charging games because you got rewarded if you plug them in. So, it became a bit of a gamification thing.

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And then a couple years later, I had the electric motorbike experience. And that was really the, yeah, sort of a life changing event looking back at it because that motorbike could already fast charge back in 2017. And even today, you can find many motorbikes that still aren't able to fast charge.

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So, it's still quite a special ability. And yeah, the fast charging really showed me that if a vehicle can fast charge and you have that infrastructure, then you can suddenly do anything.

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So I could take the, I took that motorbike as a rental, and I drove to Switzerland, for example, but it was only possible thanks to some little supermarkets that offered fast chargers in what I call the French charging desert, because in northern France back then, there were so little DC chargers that you actually needed these supermarkets to do that trip.

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And then because they weren't offering it as a business, but as a service to clients, they weren't, these chargers weren't open if the shop wasn't open. So, the trip wasn't possible on a Sunday because there was no infrastructure at all.

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And yeah, for me, that was such an eye opener to infrastructure is the thing that will change everything or it can stop anything in electric mobility that I became just upset by finding out what is going on in Europe with the infrastructure of charging and fast charging.

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And yes, I was really surprised about the local differences, especially because, you know, within the Netherlands, we had nationwide coverage even then. And I found out that in many other countries, it was much more difficult to do longer journeys.

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Georgia:

In a previous episode, when I was talking with Lars, we talked about how Europe is poised to be a global leader in charging infrastructure, but there are still a lot of obstacles in the way. And during your travels, I mean, in addition to what you just referred to as like the French charging desert, and I know from our Charging Report, there are other countries that have these charging deserts.

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What are some of the main challenges you've encountered with the current European charging infrastructure?

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Felix:

Yes, first of all, it's important to mention that, of course, this is an old story. So, for example, France has changed a lot, this is completely different. So, if you download a charging app today, you can download a charging app from the UK today, and then you can charge in Germany. And this was absolutely not the case five years ago. So, things are improving a lot.

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But still, there's a lot of uncertainty, as in it matters so much which vehicle you drive, if that vehicle can give you recommendations for charging, if it will be a smart recommendation, if it will know if these chargers are actually available, if it can tell you anything about the price.

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Yeah, there's still, I always want this theme to be sort of ready for mainstreaming and get everybody in an EV yesterday. But yeah, we have a couple of hurdles to sort of fix to get there. 

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Georgia:

But in addition to the apps, like more countries having more apps, what would be some of the other big leaps you've seen in the past five years? 

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Felix:

Simply the amount of plugs is the thing that is the most incredible, and also just how much has changed. For in 2018, I could rent the Jaguar I-PACE in Amsterdam, and this was still very special. It was hard to find anywhere else. And that vehicle could charge at 100 kilowatts, which back then was regarded as fast, but now you can see that the upcoming cheap Renault 5 will charge as fast as that Jaguar did, but at a third of the price. And it can even feed back into the grid and so on.

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So, you can see that this technological progress is simply insane. So, the last five years have been changing. You know, the average charger that you see in the streets has changed a lot, and the average vehicle that you can see and the amount of vehicles, everything has changed so much. 

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And what is a bit painful is the EV is regarded as expensive. And this is sort of still thanks to Tesla coming to the market with the Model S. And when they did, this was an expensive vehicle. But what very little people realize is that a modern Model 3 that you can buy right now at less than half the price of that Model S 10 years ago, it does everything that that Model S did okay with one less screen and even less buttons.

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Not everybody might agree with that, but they brought all this technology to a different price point. And there's competition around the price point. So, other brands are actually competing. And yeah, you can see this. So, and this creates this weird vibe with the secondhand market because finally we have a secondhand market of vehicles and they are not that attractive because a new vehicle is not that much more expensive, but offers a lot more tech for your money probably. So, this is a bit of a weird phase.

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Like, in some ways this Renault 5 can sort of compete with a Jaguar. And this is strange, you know, that doesn't make any sense, but in electric mobility is completely different from the ICE vehicle from before this time. So, of course, yeah, a Jaguar will drive very differently from that Renault. I understand this, but as an EV, the Renault comes pretty close. And at that price, it's quite amazing.

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So yeah, the electric mobility scene for me, it is just mind blowing to see all that progress and to see prices actually coming down. And unfortunately, not everybody realizing that this is happening. And of course, yeah, because people don't know about kilowatt hours and stuff, yeah, how would they know that driving electric vehicle can be very cheap? They haven't tried it. So, yeah.

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Georgia:

Yeah, I won't lie – before coming to gridX, I was someone who I thought an electric vehicle was – like I really wanted one, but just thought it was very much out of my price range. And now being here and talking more about e-mobility and writing more about it, it's like, oh no, actually, this is much more affordable than I thought it was.

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In your opinion, which country do you think is leading the way in European charging infrastructure?

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Felix:

Yeah, from the perspective of, you know, chargers being everywhere and stuff, of course, for a long time, the Netherlands was really proud of their position, and still we have this amazing amount of plugs, so that is crazy.

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But I love a country like Denmark, for example, in this past year, they have introduced dynamic pricing at a lot of chargers, both AC and DC. And you can see there that there's this huge competition of, let's say, 10 companies rolling out chargers all over the country, and Denmark, like the Netherlands, is not that big.

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So, if you roll out a couple of chargers, it makes a huge difference very quickly. And they are actually, they have to be price competitive because so many new drivers are coming to market and everybody wants them. So, you can see that, you know, if you drive around the Dutch highway, then there will just be a gas station, and next to the gas station, there will probably be a Votnet station. But that is most of the time, that is it.

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And then if you drive around Denmark, as soon as you leave the highway, a lot of the gas stations are next to the highway. And then next to the highway, there's also a lot of food propositions. And then now we can see that in between the food and the gas stations, there's all these fast chargers coming, and they are all competing for the same customer.

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So, there's a Tesla station, there's a Clever station, there's an OK station, there's a Circle K station. They're all looking at each other. And if they don't offer the right price, then everybody will go to the neighbor, unless it's too busy, of course.

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So, you can see that this market is now one of the very few in Europe where there's actual price competition on fast charging plugs. And I think that one of the main reasons that that can happen is that because there's so much progress in the amount of plugs.

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Like we can see that in a country like France, the highway has improved magnificently. So, before you were hoping to find a fast charger next to a gas station. Now they're building these huge stations all over France. So, you will find a plug if you're driving along the highway. But because you're driving on a French toll road, there won't be any actual choice. You have to use the station that is there.

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And then there's some kind of price cap going on.

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So, for the moment, you're quite safe, and you're, for example, way better off in France than in Germany. Even though Germany has more fast chargers, they are, for example, way more expensive than in France. 

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And this also to me is just really hilarious. If you look at the European fast charging competition, then you can see Italy is way more expensive than France. Spain is sort of competitive with France. Portugal has its own different game. And then Germany is very expensive. And then you drive to Denmark, which, as a country, is way more expensive than Germany, but has way more competitive fast chargers. So, for me, it is all just hilarious to follow because it's such a wild market.

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Like, five years ago, it was really this wild west that you were hoping to find a working plug. And now it's this wild west of competitors, competitors, dynamic pricing, Tesla being suddenly there as one of the biggest players for everybody.

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There's so much going on. It's incredible.

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Georgia:

Because you've been mentioning fast chargers a lot, in our Charging Report, we show that across most European countries, there is a trend in an increase in fast chargers. Would you agree with that then?

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Felix:

Yeah, you can see that in a country like Denmark, in a country like France, even in a country like Spain, also Sweden, you can see that in most of these countries in either a year, maybe one and a half years, in most of these places, the fast charging plugs have tripled.

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And of course, the market was also much smaller, so it's sort of easy to grow. But yeah, the difference, if you did a road trip from Amsterdam to Copenhagen or, you know, Lyon two years ago, and you do that trip again today, then it is like being in a new world.

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It's completely amazing.

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Georgia:

Do you think that's the right trajectory to head in and slow chargers will eventually be phased out completely?

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Felix:

No, no. So, there's a big role for slow chargers as well. And actually, they're at least as important, if not even more, because for local adoption of EVs, I think the Netherlands has shown that by having these plugs, it's just a much easier step for people to think that they will be fine having an electric vehicle and being able to plug it in.

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And also, as a typical Amsterdam example, I like to mention these shared vehicles, because a company like Car2Go that doesn't exist anymore, but now it's shared now, and now it's taken over by Ceylon, so now it's free to move.

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But they could go with a fully electric fleet to Amsterdam a decade ago, because Amsterdam had a charging network.

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And when I go to visit my friends in Berlin today, then most of the shared vehicles in Berlin today, the cars, are still fossil. And why is that? Because there aren't enough plugs to actually charge these vehicles.

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So, if you would change all that fleet to electric, you would have a huge problem as a fleet operator, because the charging would be way too much of a hassle. Now, in Berlin, things are finally improving. So, last time I was there, suddenly I saw AC chargers all over the place in street where I had never seen them before.

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Unfortunately, in Germany, for example, we can see that AC chargers are sort of in trouble because they almost exclusively run with blocking tariffs. And they call them blocking tariffs, but actually they start accounting you an extra fee after, for example, four hours of charging.

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But then many modern EVs, unless you buy the Renault, aren't full after four hours at such a charger. So, this doesn't make any sense. You're not blocking your charging, but you get this blocking fee in your face.

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So, for me, this is really interesting to see that in a market like Denmark as well, fast charging is so competitive now that in many places you would be better off to fast charge on the way to Copenhagen than charging up in the street in Copenhagen because it might be more expensive.

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And it sort of makes sense because the weird thing is that if you think about it, and if one EV is using an AC charger all day or all night, this one charger can only deliver power to one vehicle. And of course, with a fast charger, depending on how you build it and where you build it and which vehicles use it, of course, one charger can charge 100 people on the same day.

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So yeah, it's also going to be very interesting for me to watch how this will evolve because especially now with grids becoming greener in Europe and thus having a lot of daytime moments where fast – in Denmark, if you fast charge during the day when it's windy and sunny, fast charging will be crazy cheap. And it's completely realistic that it could be that way also a couple of years from now, maybe even cheaper than today.

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And then, yeah, maybe for some use cases, it doesn't make that much sense to invest in a lot of AC plugs that don't get that much usage.

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But I still think that places where cars are simply just parked all day, yeah, it makes total sense for there to be a plug. But this is something that local government really has to, yeah, without the help of local government, this stuff won't work.

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Georgia:

Can you describe any innovative charging technologies or methods that you've come across that could revolutionize the industry?

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Felix:

We simply need more plugs, because if you cannot plug in, then this is just very problematic. And yeah, the charging industry has a couple of models going around. And if you look at the typical modern fast charger that you would encounter, for example, in Germany, then this is almost always one big charger that can charge two vehicles.

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And the weird thing is that if you encounter the same charger in France, then, for example, along these highways, the regulations make it so that these chargers have to deliver a certain speed to the vehicle. Otherwise, they cannot be installed.

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So, the hardware isn't used as well, because there's only one cable there at the same machine that in Germany would have two.

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And yeah, I think these – and then you have a company like Tesla where one charger sort of delivers power to four vehicles at the same time, which is one of the reasons why they can simply offer it cheaper. So, I think we'll see a lot of those movements.

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And if you compare it to China, we can see that they build chargers there that are even faster than what – in Europe, we now have a couple of 400 kilowatt chargers. So, if you're lucky on your trips, you will find some of those. But then there's not a single vehicle on the European market that can actually use it.

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And then when you look at a market like China, vehicles are starting to be able to charge 500 kilowatts.

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But then how will – can we build the infrastructure that those vehicles need and at what price? Yeah, this will be just very interesting to watch, because these grids they have before we make them much heavier, they have a sort of a maximum they can deliver.

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And yeah, I think we need to dare to make this all possible. So, I feel that we're not heading for only faster charging, but yeah, making way better use of the power that's there probably will see more of battery-powered fast charging, because these prices of batteries are coming down so much.

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So, yeah, and that will help bringing power to places where maybe the grid will just take too long to upgrade, so just put a big battery there.

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Yeah, there's still a lot of opportunity, and I think especially solar and wind parks combined with fast charging, yeah, I think we've only seen the very beginning of those solutions.

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Georgia:

What are some of the biggest challenges that you think grid operators face with increasing the load from EV charging stations? Because I know you've already now mentioned a few of the solutions that they might have, but so what would be some of the obstacles?

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Felix:

Yeah, I mean, obviously, the cars are used to go the distance. You know, you can take a car and drive through the north of Norway, and then obviously, it doesn't make – yeah, Oslo will have thousands of chargers, and clearly, if you make it to the north of the country, there will be much less. And also, yeah, for some of these places, of course, can you...

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Yeah, can you – is there an explanation to do a huge grid upgrade if there's, you know, let's say, one summer season in France where it's suddenly very busy? How are you going to build the right grid connection for a place like that where probably 11 months of the year you don't really need it? And then in August, suddenly, every day, you're maxed out.

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So, that's where I think that batteries and even temporary solar panels have been used in the past, stuff like this. But mainly, yeah, just the sum of these investments, like, of course, if you know that it's always busy somewhere, then you can put whatever grid connection.

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And, you know, if we know that I expect trucks to electrify completely in the next decade, so obviously they will need the grid connection anyway, and then hopefully you can share it with the car charging station, because, yeah, not all these stations will be as busy at the same moment, for example. But I think, yeah, we have to get better at finding the solutions of, you know, the grid connection is there, but are we using it in the right way?

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Because, you know, having a huge connection is nice, but you need the right charters there as well to always be able to deliver what these customers need. And then, of course, yeah, nobody wants driving a electric to be crazy expensive. So, yeah, you have to do it in a way that makes sense investment wise as well.

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Georgia:

In the Netherlands, you said you're in a gridlock because you guys already have too many charge points? That can't be possible.

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Felix:

No, it's really – it's got very little to do with the charge points. Like, of course, Fastnet has many stations here, and they have a good connection for this, and they need upgrades in many locations that are way too slow.

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But the thing is really that the Netherlands is one of these places where we always thought that we were so efficient that, yeah, you're not going to build capacity that nobody needs, which makes sense, but then, yeah, if you want to electrify pretty much everything, yeah, it just means more cables all over the place.

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And then it turns out that we also just run into this technical problem where we might have the money to install more cables.

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The cables might be there, but we simply lack qualified personnel to put them in the ground. So, that's also just a very physical thing, and why I think it's very sad that the new government, even though they aren't installed yet, they think that they can build a wall around this country and just stop it right there.

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But yeah, we actually need way more people here to help with this. So, yeah, it's a tough phase we're in.

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Georgia:

Just a moment ago, you were mentioning about chargers in China. I know your specialty is more going around Europe and checking out the charging infrastructure, but have you assessed it on other continents?

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Felix:

Yeah, yeah, I tried to follow a lot of people from all over the world because I'm so curious, because I know that, you know, even though for a while Europe was at least ahead compared to the US, and this might change in the next years, who knows?

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But for example, it was already very clear to me a couple of years ago that if you ever look at China, then Europe isn't ahead. And so this idea that we are running the show is almost hilarious because they're simply, yeah, if you look at it from a global perspective, Bloomberg has shared some of these charging statistics.

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And you can just, if you don't take away the full top 10 of fast charging companies in China, you don't even get a European company or an American company in the same picture of kilowatt hours delivered on a yearly basis because that's how big the business is over there. And that's how much faster electrification is going, mainly in my opinion, by having price points that we cannot even believe are happening because batteries over there are simply cheaper, charging is cheaper.

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So, yeah, it's just a given that if you have that kind of competition, I think that a lot of people don't always realize, like in the States, you have so much cheap gas, at least cheap considered from a European perspective, that if you go for electrification at the prices that are almost comparable to fast charging in France, then obviously, who is going to be interested in this in the States if you can drive a gas car at half the price? That doesn't make any sense.

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But the thing is that of course in a place like the States, so many people could install solar at their own house because they all live in these houses that have their own roof and whatever, which is totally different from Europe and many countries that also, yeah, there's these opportunities that are just – in China, nobody can put solar on their roof because they all live in a huge building and all these cars are parked in a big garage.

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So, if you then don't fix garage charging, then forget about electrification. So, yeah, you can see that everybody has their own set of stuff to deal with. And then there's this – the fossil companies are very different in all these regions.

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So, it's just super interesting to see. But yeah, from a tech, from a nerdy perspective, it's just amazing to see the progress in China where, yeah, just batteries are coming at prices that you will not believe. And the technological progress of these batteries is so huge that if you connect them to the right chargers, yeah, they can almost be competitive with a fossil refueling.

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So, that's just insane to watch. And it just shows you what will happen with electrification anywhere, because these fat chargers aren't going to become slower. That's a given.

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Georgia:

That actually takes me right into my next question, which is what are your predictions for some of the biggest changes in EV charging infrastructure over the next decade?

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Felix:

Yeah, I really hope that we can see this healthy competition leading to simply better charging circumstances where, yeah, five years ago, you could really just run into a plug that wasn't working at any given moment in most countries.

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And there I think we see a lot of improvement, but still, yeah, it's also clear to realize that we're definitely not there yet. So, in a country like France, the official statistics say that one out of five plugs are still not always reliable. So, that is sort of a huge number, if you think about it, that if you visit 10 chargers per month, imagine that two of them are not working as you expect them to.

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That is unacceptable for the mainstream perspective of everybody being using this infrastructure. But the thing is, luckily, that with just these EV fleets growing, that will help fast charging and regular charging just becoming a viable business. Because the thing is that you have to build these chargers for EVs to be a vehicle that people can use.

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But then, yeah, we need way more. Like right now in Germany, we've seen a huge build out of chargers. And now they cut down on the subsidies and stuff.

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And, for example, in a country like Germany, they're sort of facing a sort of an American-like problem where diesel and diesel cars are popular and not so expensive. So yeah, how attractive is electric mobility for the average German that wants to drive fast on the Autobahn all day long? Yeah, maybe it isn't that ideal. So, we really have to get much better at the full infrastructure game.

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Like AC charging in Germany has to be affordable. Like you cannot penalize using chargers. They should be used. You want them used all day. So, it doesn't make any sense to let me pay more for actually using it. So yeah, you can still see that we have a lot of basics that aren't done.

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Like we aren't done with them. They aren't fixed. And yeah, all over Europe, we're dealing with our own set of issues. And yeah, in a country like Germany, these companies investing in fast chargers, they need a way bigger fleet for it to actually make sense. And that fleet isn't growing as fast as it should right now. So yeah, it's going to be very interesting to see, can European companies offer these attractive vehicles with the right charting cards?

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Because for example, a couple of years ago, if you bought a vehicle, then most of them came with a charting card with a decent offer, like to get your kilowatt hours at the right price. But today, I'm noticing that more and more vehicles are coming with a worse charting deal than a couple of years ago, when in many of these countries, the electricity market has become way more competitive than it was a couple of years ago.

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So, there are still a lot of these things that I think like, we need to get to work.

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This is not – yeah, it is just – we're still really competing with this fossil business that is just throwing more money at fake news and whatever. So, yeah, we're definitely not even halfway done.

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Georgia:

If you could design your own custom charging station, what would that look like and what features would you include?

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Felix:

I mean, for me, this – I focus on the analog world, you know, even though I've been always intrigued by having more apps and finding the right prices. Like, I will never forget that just even today, just finding the charger can still be. It can still be hidden behind the gas station without a sign.

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If you're driving around the highway in Europe, in a country like Switzerland, there's suddenly signs everywhere that even when you go to a rest stop where there is not a gas station, there are now fast chargers and there's a big sign showing you where they are.

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And yeah, but these basics are still – if you travel around Europe, we're simply not – yeah, we're not there. Like, these signs are missing in many places. If you get off the highway in France, suddenly the sign might be very unclear about where is the actual charging, and these rest stops are huge.

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So, if there's not the right sign, then you won't find it. And so these basics of having huge signs with logos telling me if there are plugs available, telling me what kind of speed you offer, what kind of price do you offer, maybe you give me a coffee with my charging. There's so much things we can do to improve simply finding a charger, because I get that people think that maybe, you know, we, of course, I expect most EVs to be able to help you to find a charger.

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But the thing is that I also want to be able to find a charger without asking anything. It just needs to be obvious where these chargers are. And yeah, I think that this is one of these basics that, yeah, we're in a market like Denmark, we're now seeing these pricing signs even at gas stations. There's suddenly the price of gas and the kilowatt hour is just next to it.

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And you can see this huge price difference, even though the kilowatt hour is obviously not directly comparable to the liter of gas, but still you can just see suddenly that, you know, the kilowatt hour is much cheaper.

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So, that just already looks good. So, in my opinion, we need those signs everywhere to just show what it's like. But then in Germany, these signs would be a bit painful because a lot of these gas stations offering fast chargers offer it at a crazy price. But if they would be honest about it with a big sign, then maybe people would also ask for change.

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So yeah, the analog world, in my opinion, needs the most improvements.

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Georgia:

And for my last question, do you have a favorite charging station, especially because you said you travel between Amsterdam and Berlin a good bit? Like, is there one that you always have to stop at?

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Felix:

Yes, especially if I go to the south of Germany, there's this station in Hilden, like I said, Dusseldorf, Cologne region. And there's this local bakery that has built this huge station (Seed & Greet) there a couple of years back. And they are really setting an example for how to do fast charging, because they've been there from the very beginning with, for example, Tesla chargers and a big Fastnet station under the same big solar roof. They've expanded all of these chargers since they opened.

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So, this station is only about four years old, but they've sort of doubled in capacity since their opening. So, in these four years, this station has become much bigger. They sell fresh baked snacks, drinks, whatever. There's a free toilet. Nowadays, there's a swapping station.

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What I really like is that there's fast charging, there's slow charging. There's even, in the slow charging department, there's even slower charging that is even cheaper than the slow charging. So, you can even choose if you know that you're there all day because you need to work in a neighborhood and you're just picked up by a colleague, you can put your car there.

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You drive it for half the money that you normally would in Germany, and these things just all show me, these people get what they are doing. This is how you build such a station, and they're constantly just expanding.

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I've seen only solar panels being installed after they opened the station. They're still going to make a bigger lounge with a bigger place where people can work. And yeah, it just shows to me, this is a future-proof location because there's more than 70 plugs there. There's tens of slower plugs as well. So, you know, a hundred cars could charge there. Then people could be swapping their batteries if they have the Chinese battery swap model that other brands could still join in China. In China, you can see that more brands are cooperating now. So, even the battery swapping game in China is already competitive. When in Europe, we only have one player right now.

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And yeah, such a station really shows what you need because this, yeah, and it's in this perfect spot where a lot of Dutch people either on their way home or on their way to the snow or to the sun. This is an ideal first stop because it's a couple hundred kilometers from a lot of locations in the Netherlands. So yeah, it just really shows you, this is how it should be done.

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You can easily reach it from all sides of the highway. Even there's highways connecting there. So there's a huge amount of traffic. I love a station like this because you can see that it's working. There's always a good crowd. You can meet fun vehicles. Even trucks can charge there now. And yeah, it just shows you how it should be done.

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Georgia:

Well, thank you so much again for joining us, for joining me for our first season. Is there anything else you want to add before we wrap up?

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Felix:

No, I think this was a great, great session. And I love to talk about charging and especially around Europe, but also globally. So, thank you very much for inviting me and I hope to see you again.

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Georgia:

If you'd like to learn more about the world of renewable energy or energy management systems, be sure to check out our website, gridx.ai, where we produce regular blogs and glossaries about the subject.

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You can also follow us on LinkedIn, or on Twitter and Instagram @getgridX.

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